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Subiect: Cum se joaca contra ierbii sau antitopspin

  1. #16
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    Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

    Long Pimples - Killing Topspin
    Finally, let's take a look at one of the advanced aspects of using long pips - the ability to kill the spin on the ball when your opponent doesn't expect it, returning a sneaky float ball. Again, I must point out that although the long pips don't kill the spin the same way as inverted rubber does, they are totally predictable in how they work - you just have to know what is going on.
    Take a look at both animations below - the idea is the same for both.

    Points to note:
    * Firstly, let me just point out that this is not the easiest technique in the world to master. You have to get your bat angle and the direction of your stroke just right, so that your pips bend in all directions, rather than in the same direction. This is not as easy as you might think.
    * Secondly, think about the difference between this stroke and how you would kill the spin with a normal rubber. With an inverted rubber, you have to judge the amount of spin the ball has when it reaches you (which is usually much less than your opponent originally put on it due to air resistance), and then put exactly the same amount of spin in the opposite direction to cancel everything out. So you generally end up stroking much more slowly then your opponent, since you are trying to cancel out the smaller amount of spin that is left when it reaches you. This slow stroke usually makes it pretty obvious that you are trying to kill the spin.
    * In contrast, with long pips you aren't trying to reverse your opponent's spin precisely, you are just trying to grab the ball and stop the spin completely. (It's like the difference between trying to stop a spinning top by flicking it in the other direction, versus just grabbing the darn thing!). So you don't have to swing slower, you just have to get the bat angle and direction right. You may not kill the spin totally, but if you do it right you'll reduce it much more than he thinks! So it's not easy for your opponent to tell what you are doing - inverted rubber doesn't work like that.
    * Again, this is another example why players who don't understand long pips get confused - and why you might get confused as well. If you don't know that long pips can do this - you might accidentally manage to play this type of stroke during a match and leave both you and your opponent scratching your head about what just happened, as the ball takes off in an unexpected direction.
    * This is also a great technique to use against opponents who tell you that they have long pips "all figured out". These type of players usually understand how the bending of the pips can increase or decrease the spin on the ball. Throw this technique at them a few times, and watch them start to scratch their heads and lose their confidence. Lovely stuff!
    Conclusion
    Obviously, this article isn't the complete guide to long pips. There's a lot more to using them successfully then just understanding the basics, but knowing the fundamentals is essential if you are going to be a good long pips player.
    An expert long pips player can vary the amount of bending of the pips to increase or decrease the effects, twiddle his bat around to use the other inverted side, or even adjust his swing speed and amount of wrist he uses to completely bamboozle his opponent.
    If you'd like to learn more about the advanced use of long pimpled rubbers, you can join my online coaching group to get advice on techniques, tactics and training. I've used long pips and antispin rubbers for over 20 years, and at age 38 I'm still competing successfully at the national level in Australia (just ask some of my victims!), with a ranking of #945 in the ITTF World Men's Rankings as of December 2008.
    Ultima modificare făcută de clau; 18.01.2011 la 16:05.

  2. Mulțumesc Dan Popa au mulțumit pentru mesaj
    Îmi place Marian Bogdan le-a plăcut acest mesaj
  3. #17
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    Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

    How Antispin Really Works
    Welcome back! Now that you have a good idea of how long pimples work, I won't have to go over all the same things that antispin and long pimples have in common. Instead, we can focus on what's unique about antispin.
    What Is Antispin?
    Antispin rubbers are inverted rubbers that are designed to nullify the effects of an opponent's spin. They generally achieve this by having a relatively slick, slippery surface, that doesn't grip the ball much. In physics terms, the angle of reflection is pretty close to the angle of incidence - or more simply put, the ball will bounce off your racket at the same angle it came from (not the same path!) - the spin on the ball won't make much difference.
    Antispin has a smooth topsheet for hitting the ball, with the pimples on the inside, instead of the outside. The topsheet can vary from very firm to quite soft. The softer the topsheet, the more it can wrap around the ball, allowing more of the antispin surface to touch the ball.
    Since it is an inverted rubber, antispin must also have sponge. These sponges can vary in hardness vs softness, and in the amount of speed they provide. Generally a softer sponge will allow the topsheet to bend more, allowing more of the topsheet surface to touch the ball. A faster sponge will rebound the ball more quickly, allowing less time for the topsheet to be in contact with the ball.
    Contact With The Ball - Why Is This Important?
    The factors I mentioned above are important because they affect the amount of time the topsheet is in contact with the ball, and the amount of topsheet that will come into contact with the ball. Here's the important stuff to know:
    * Antispins are by nature fairly slippery, but they do have a small amount of grip - which varies from rubber to rubber.
    * The more slippery the rubber, the less it can affect the original spin on the ball.
    * The more time the topsheet is in contact with the ball, the more chance it has to affect the original spin.
    * The more the amount of topsheet is in contact with the ball, the more chance it has to affect the original spin.
    So a very slippery, hard topsheet on fast, firm sponge will probably have very little effect on the ball's spin, simply allowing the spin to continue while changing the direction the ball is travelling in, while a less slippery, flexible topsheet on slow, soft sponge will be able to affect the spin on the ball comparatively more (although still not a lot when compared to normal inverted rubbers though!).
    Antispin - Chop Against Topspin
    With all that in mind, take a look at the animation below. In all these examples, I'm going to demonstrate what happens when using an antispin with a less slippery, flexible topsheet, on soft, slower sponge. This is the combination that allows you to affect the spin on the ball the most.


    Points to note:
    * The soft, slow sponge and flexible topsheet allows more of the topsheet to contact the ball, giving you the opportunity to grip the ball a little, and to use that grip to increase the spin on the ball a little.
    * Slipperier, stiffer topsheets on faster, firmer sponge will increase the spin much less, tending to simply return the ball back to your opponent with little change in the spin, apart from the reduction due to air friction.
    * Just like with long pimples, the spin on the ball going back to your opponent is backspin, which is what he would expect. It probably won't be quite as much as he expects though, since the antispin won't grip the ball very much.
    Ultima modificare făcută de clau; 18.01.2011 la 16:08.

  4. Mulțumesc Marian Bogdan, Dan Popa au mulțumit pentru mesaj
    Îmi place marian oancea, Radu Serban le-a plăcut acest mesaj
  5. #18
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    Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

    Antispin - Chop Against Backspin
    Now let's look at the same chop stroke from you, but against your opponent's backspin ball.


    Points to note:
    * In this case, the wrapping of the topsheet around the ball will reduce the spin on the ball a little, but will not reverse the direction of the spin - it does not have enough grip to do that. This is completely different to what would happen using normal inverted rubber.
    * Just as with long pimples, this can confuse opponents who don't know how antispin works. The same shot with normal inverted rubber would change the direction of the spin, returning a backspin ball.
    * Again, although the result is opposite to what would happen with a normal inverted rubber, the result is entirely predictable - the antispin will always react the same way.
    Ultima modificare făcută de clau; 18.01.2011 la 16:09.

  6. Mulțumesc Marian Bogdan, Dan Popa au mulțumit pentru mesaj
    Îmi place marian oancea, Radu Serban le-a plăcut acest mesaj
  7. #19
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    Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

    Antispin - 'Loop' Against Backspin
    Now let's reverse the direction of your own stroke, so that you are playing an upward, loop style stroke against your opponent's backspin ball.


    Points to note:
    * Again, the wrapping of the topsheet and sponge of the antispin will allow you to increase the spin on the ball a little, but much less than with normal inverted rubber.
    * Your opponent will be correct in assuming that topspin is on the ball, but he might misjudge how much spin, since you are adding less spin than a normal inverted rubber would.
    Ultima modificare făcută de clau; 18.01.2011 la 16:10.

  8. Mulțumesc Marian Bogdan, Dan Popa au mulțumit pentru mesaj
    Îmi place marian oancea, Radu Serban le-a plăcut acest mesaj
  9. #20
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    Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

    Antispin - 'Loop' Against Topspin
    Now let's compare what happens when you play a loop type stroke with your antispin against a topspin ball.


    Points to note:
    * Again, this is similar to what happens when using long pimples, but the antispin will affect the spin on the ball much less. You have not changed the direction of the spin, you have only reduced the amount of spin a little. The stiffer and slipperier the topsheet, and the firmer and faster the sponge, the less effect you will have.
    * Just as with long pimples, this can be confusing for opponents. If you had played this stroke with an inverted rubber, you would have changed the direction of the spin from counterclockwise (topspin from your opponent) to clockwise (topspin from you). But instead, the opposite has happened, the ball is still spinning counterclockwise, just a little more slowly.
    * Remember, this will happen every time - it's completely predictable. But first you have to understand what is going on to be able to tell what will happen. Opponents who complain about antispin and long pips either can't be bothered to learn what is going on, or haven't had anyone explain what is happening properly!
    Ultima modificare făcută de clau; 18.01.2011 la 16:12.

  10. Mulțumesc Marian Bogdan, Dan Popa au mulțumit pentru mesaj
    Îmi place marian oancea, Radu Serban le-a plăcut acest mesaj
  11. #21
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    Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

    Antispin - Killing Topspin
    Because antispin has a smooth surface, unlike long pips, it can't kill spin the same way that long pimples do. But it can still have some effect at killing spin. Check out the two animations below.


    Points to note:
    * First of all, you can forget about pulling this sort of shot off if your topsheet is too hard, and your sponge is too firm. The ball is going to bounce off the rubber before it has a chance to slow anything down.
    * Secondly, this is a darn tough shot to pull off successfully. You are almost trying to "catch" the ball with your antispin, giving the ball as much time as possible to stay in contact with the topsheet. Because the topsheet is fairly slippery, the ball will continue to spin on the racket, rather than jumping straight off. But that little bit of friction will still slow down the spin on the ball. Keep in mind that pure air resistance slows the spin on the ball down a lot during the time it takes to travel from your opponent to you. So if you can maximise the contact time with the ball, you have a chance to slow it down even more.
    * Thirdly, I must admit that the mechanics of how this works is just a theory of mine - I don't have scientific proof - I'd need a super high speed camera for that! But I've used enough antispin, and played against enough antispin during my career to see the result in action. This is my best explanation for how the effect is achieved.
    Conclusion
    As you've already guessed if you read my article on How Long Pimples Really Work, this part is where I explain that this is only a primer on antispin, and that there is much more to using antispin well than just these basics.
    Much of the effect of antispin (and long pimples) is in how you apply the fundamentals, combining antispin with an inverted rubber on the other side to deceive your opponent about what spin you have put on the ball. New antispin users hope that simply contacting the ball with the antispin will do the job - expert antispin players have a number of ways to achieve this deception and get the most from their racket.
    If you'd like to learn more about the advanced use of antispin rubbers, you can join my online coaching group to get advice on techniques, tactics and training. I've used long pips and antispin rubbers for over 20 years, and at age 38 I'm still competing successfully at the national level in Australia (just ask some of my victims!), with a ranking of #945 in the ITTF World Men's Rankings as of December 2008.
    Ultima modificare făcută de clau; 18.01.2011 la 16:14.

  12. Mulțumesc Marian Bogdan, Dan Popa au mulțumit pentru mesaj
    Îmi place marian oancea, Radu Serban le-a plăcut acest mesaj
  13. #22
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    Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

    Fara ironii ieftine , kiar articolele sunt interesante pentru cei ce joaca impotriva materialelor . De multe ori doar experienta face diferenta.
    Am citit articol despre problemele pe care le au kinezii cand joaca impotriva lui Joo Se Hyuk de exemplu pentru ca nu au aparator de talia lui Joo cu care sa se antreneze si nu pot face fata spinului care vine de la Joo. Ma Lin e un exemplu ilustru in acest sens.
    Pe de alta parte sunt destui ierbari care au probleme maaari daca joaca contra .... ierbarilor :P
    Blade DHS PG 12
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  14. Îmi place Radu Serban le-a plăcut acest mesaj
  15. #23
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    Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

    Nu am vrut sa supar pe nimeni cu ceea ce am postat.Sunt interesante imaginile animate, dar dupa parerea mea la fel de putin folositoare in rezolvarea "problemei" ca si disertatia mea despre efectul Magnus.Daca intelegerea traiectoriilor nu se concretizeaza in automatisme foarte bine puse la punct, atunci totul ramane pura teorie. Iar pentru formarea automatismelor e nevoie de......
    Observatia lui Vali e perfecta, ca ierbar am nevoie si eu de 2000 ore de antrenament pentru a rezista unui confrate mai vechi in "functie" !!!
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  16. Îmi place Radu Serban le-a plăcut acest mesaj
  17. #24
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    Re: Cum se joaca contra ierbii sau antitopspin

    Intrebare: Butterfly Super Anti intra in categoria materialelor? Iarba nu este, dar am foarte mari probleme cu un prieten care joaca cu o astfel de fata. Nu de alta, dar sa ma pregatesc pentru cele 2000 de ore de antrenament
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  18. #25
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    Re: Cum se joaca contra ierbii sau antitopspin

    Citat Postat în original de macocco
    Intrebare: Butterfly Super Anti intra in categoria materialelor? Iarba nu este, dar am foarte mari probleme cu un prieten care joaca cu o astfel de fata. Nu de alta, dar sa ma pregatesc pentru cele 2000 de ore de antrenament
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  19. #26
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    Re: Cum se joaca contra ierbii sau antitopspin

    Multumesc, cam asa ceva. Al doilea topspin mi se duce in fileu, a doua minge taiata o ia razna in sus s.a.m.d. Hm, 2000 h de antrenament, adica 1000 zile a cate 2 ore, iesim la pensie amandoi
    TB ZLF & T05/T05FX

  20. #27
    maestru

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    Re: Cum se joaca contra ierbii sau antitopspin

    dai primu topspin ..si daca iti pune capac ...al doilea e mai greu sa-l dai ...iti trebuie ceva mai mult simt si control. Eu deobicei dupa ce-am dat primu topspin si mi se intoarce mingea inapoi din block sau anti incerc sa o lovesc drept...sa o pun pe masa. Sunt si momente cand dau al doilea topspin dar asta in functie de cat de urat se intoarce mingea de la adversar.Trebuie gandit putin jocu! Bafta!
    Pentru o viaţă sănătoasă evitaţi: prietenii falşi, minciuna şi excesul de încredere.

  21. Îmi place marian oancea, Marian Bogdan, Radu Serban le-a plăcut acest mesaj
  22. #28
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    Re: Cum se joaca contra ierbii sau antitopspin

    Il ti in iarba/anti ca nu are cu ce sa iti faca punct, spin stop, spin stop, spin stop ca daca ii pui stop la forhand s-ar putea sa iti inceapa parsiveste cu spin

  23. Îmi place Marian Bogdan, Radu Serban le-a plăcut acest mesaj
  24. #29
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    Re: Cum se joaca contra ierbii sau antitopspin

    Citat Postat în original de Durdun Gheorghe
    Il ti in iarba/anti ca nu are cu ce sa iti faca punct, spin stop, spin stop, spin stop ca daca ii pui stop la forhand s-ar putea sa iti inceapa parsiveste cu spin
    Poti sa faci asta cu un jucator neexperimentat, dar daca joci contra lui lui Simon cand pui stop ti-o trage de nu o mai vezi
    Blade: Photino
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  25. #30
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    Re: Cum se joaca contra ierbii sau antitopspin

    Citat Postat în original de Mathex
    Citat Postat în original de Durdun Gheorghe
    Il ti in iarba/anti ca nu are cu ce sa iti faca punct, spin stop, spin stop, spin stop ca daca ii pui stop la forhand s-ar putea sa iti inceapa parsiveste cu spin
    Poti sa faci asta cu un jucator neexperimentat, dar daca joci contra lui lui Simon cand pui stop ti-o trage de nu o mai vezi
    Ce a spus George poti face cu orice jucator care apara cu iarba si anti
    Simon are un joc atipic,cu el e mai aiurea...
    Setup: ZLC / 05 /05
    Însă Dumnezeu Și‑a dovedit dragostea față de noi prin faptul că, pe când eram păcătoși, Cristos a murit pentru noi - Romani 5:8

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