Cum se joaca contra ierbii sau antitopspin

[ciprian]

2 articole (cu animatie) pentru cei chinuiti (inca) de "materiale" : iata ca jucam cu "cartile pe masa"
Iarba:
http://www.gregsttpages.com/gttpmembers ... &Itemid=59
Antispin:
http://www.gregsttpages.com/gttpmembers ... &Itemid=59

[Razvan Tecuschi]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

De ce ne-ai deconspirat, Ciprian? Cum o sa mai castigam noi acum? Numarul victoriilor noastre va fi foarte mic (avand in vedere ca la o victorie 15% e jucator, 85% material). Sunt complet deprimat. Nu are rost sa mai vin la concursuri...

[leordarares]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

De ce ne-ai deconspirat, Ciprian? Cum o sa mai castigam noi acum? Numarul victoriilor noastre va fi foarte mic (avand in vedere ca la o victorie 15% e jucator, 85% material). Sunt complet deprimat. Nu are rost sa mai vin la concursuri...

Foarte interesante si bine realizate articolele.Sper sa fie citite de cat mai multi

[Vizitator]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

Eu zau ca nu te intzeleg dl.Pe langa faptul ca suntem "ciuca batailor' si totzi ne considera ca niste "drogatzi" le mai si dam antidotul.Lasa-i frate sa gandeasca si ei!

[Visco]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

Daca te gandesti ca cei ce folosesc "iarba" sunt lenesi, mai uita-te la niste meciuri de-a lui Joo Se Hyuk. Lasa "frictionless" ca ala sa papat!

[dado_daniel]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

tocmai de aceea am spus ca romanii sunt lenesi, pana la un anumit nivel de performanta jocul cu material de aparare te scoate din multe lipsuri in plan tehnic si tactic! exemple de axceptii sunt doar exceptii! Talent adevarat!

[Visco]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

Poti fi lenes si cu "inverted". Dar parca nu se vede asa tare?

[Vizitator]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

tocmai de aceea am spus ca romanii sunt lenesi, pana la un anumit nivel de performanta jocul cu material de aparare te scoate din multe lipsuri in plan tehnic si tactic! exemple de axceptii sunt doar exceptii! Talent adevarat!
Sunt un aparator clasic.Am jucat la CSM Cluj cam 7 ani ca aparator ca "Partner Training" intre anii 1965-1972.Am avut onoarea sa joc cu Giurgiuca,Papp,Cobarzan,si multi alti campioni ai Romaniei.Pe vremea mea nu era lipici si tot felul de avantaje pt.atacanti.Dupa 34 de ani dintr-o intamplare m-am infectat din nou de TDM.Dar un mare soc!1-"Instrumentele" de lucru sau schimbat!2-Varsta isi pune amprenta 'mai ales la "telescoape"!Ce-i de facut?Am cumparat un robot Robo-Pong 2040 nou,apoi unul Amicus 3000+,masa Stiga Expert Roller cu blat de 25mm nou,o gramada de lemne,ierburi si o gramada de ore de antrenament.Sa nu mai zica nimeni ca suntem "lenesi"!Paleta nu joaca singur!Cand oamenii nu au succes cauta motive si de obicei nu ei sunt de vina!Departe de mine gandul de a supara pe cineva,dar va sugerez sa va antrenatzi si sa ganditzi in joc!Mult succes tuturor!

[dado_daniel]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

perfect de acord cu dvs.!!! Eu ma refer la tinerii(ca si mine ) de astazi care apeleaza la "materiale" avand in minte mirajul ca acestea vor face treaba in locul lor si vor inlocui orele lungi de antrenament! Si inca ceva ; ati reluat tenisul cu ierburi pt ca asta ati invatat cand erati tanar, si era poate prea greu sa va apucati de jocul cu inverted, dar eu vad ca acum cine se apuca de acest sport paraseste relativ repede inverted pentru ierburi si anti pt, ca nu au rabdare, vor numai sa castige uitand ca sportul acesta e si frumos, nu numai orientat spre castig! Si intr-adevar jucatorii de valoare aparatori in topuri ii numeri pe degete! De ce oare? La nivelul Amatourului aparatorii pot pune probleme serioase, dar unde topspinistii si allrounderii sunt de reala valoare aparatorii ori dispar ori raman cei care, asa cum am spus, intr-adevar AU TALENT DEOSEBIT!!!

[Vizitator]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

Dl Ciprian e departe de mine gandul de a ma certa cu cineva.Doar facem schimb de opinii.Pe vremea mea nu existai ierburi.Nici fețe cu zimtzi nu prea erau.Doar Cobarzan si Maria Alexandru jucau cu zimtzi direct pe lemn fara burete.Noi eram aparatori clasici.Vroiam sa scot in evidentza ca daca vrei sa profitzi de o "iarba" miraculoasa in primul rand trebuie sa joci cu ea cam multisor ca sa potzi profita apoi din plin de calitatzile ei.Deci nu e doar ca ai lipit-o pe paleta si gata.Mi-a trebuit 3 luni sa ma invatz cu Virus 2 ca apoi sa o interzica.Apoi am trecut pe Insider,alte antrenamente.Stitzi si dvs ca fiecare "iarba" raspunde altcumva la aceleasi efecte.Unghiul este diferit.Deci intaresc ce a scris dl Dado ca mai trebuie "o leaca" si de antrenament.Mult succes tuturor celor care cauta "ierburi" tamaduitoare.

[ciprian]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

My pleasure.
Un articol despre aparatori : http://www.pipfacts.info/content/view/66/87/

[clau]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

In cazul in care linkurile de pe pagina 1 nu mai functioneaza, atasez aici intregul articol:
How Long Pimples Really Work
If you are reading this article, there's a good chance that:
* You don't know how to play against long pimples, and you feel that long pimples are unpredictable, unfair, and should be banned. You need some help on how to deal with them before you go out of your mind!; or
* You are planning to use long pimples yourself (or have just started), and you are winning some points with them, and losing others, but you don't really know what will happen next. Your opponent doesn't know what is going on, and neither do you!
What I'm going to do in this article is explain in simple terms how long pimples work. By the time you have finished reading you should have a clear grasp of what is happening out there on the table when you use your long pips.
Long Pips Are Predictable
The first thing to understand about long pimples is this - long pimples are predictable. Forget what your friends, opponents or anybody else has to say about how confusing and random their effects are - it's all garbage. Once you understand how they work, long pips are entirely predictable. IMPORTANT!! - they don't always work the same as inverted rubber - but they do always do the same thing. Burn that into your brain and you'll have made a good first step to getting the hang of long pips.
Forget The Frictionless Long Pips
I'm going to explain to you about how the typical grippy long pip rubbers work. I'm not going to worry about frictionless long pips - they have been banned by the ITTF and you won't be seeing them again anytime soon. At any rate, they were predictable as well (in a different way), except for the versions with grippy tops and slippery sides, or slippery tops and grippy sides. But now that they are all gone, I'll stick to explaining normal grippy long pips, where the pimple tops and sides are all more or less the same friction level.
Long Pimples - Chop vs Topspin
Let's start with the classic scenario, where your opponent has topspinned (or looped) the ball at you, and you chop the ball with your long pips. Take a look at the animation below, then read on.

The picture really says it all, but I'll add a few clarifications.
* As you can see from the animation, you have taken your opponent's topspin, added to the amount of spin by brushing the ball with your long pips, and then sent the ball back in the other direction, but with the ball spinning faster in the same direction it was originally revolving.
* The amount of spin added by the bending of the pips will depend on your bat speed, bat angle, and how well you brush the ball with the pips. A faster bat, a more open bat angle, and a better brush can really increase the spin on the ball, giving your opponent a really heavy backspin ball to deal with.
* The thickness of your sponge (if any), stiffness of the pips, and amount of grip of the pips will all affect the amount of extra spin you can generate. I've found that the amount of sponge isn't hugely important, but stiffer pips tend to generate less spin, and obviously less grippy pips will increase the spin less.
* Finally, notice that the result of this stroke with long pips is pretty much the same as if you have chopped the ball with a normal inverted rubber - you have increased the amount of spin on the ball, in the same direction as it was originally spinning. You probably haven't increased it as much as an inverted rubber would, but apart from that it's pretty much the same.

[clau]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

Long Pimples - Chop vs Backspin
Now let's look at what happens when you play the same sort of stroke (another chop), but against your opponent's backspin ball. As you can see from the animation below, the results are very different.


Some points to note:
* Firstly, you have played the exact same shot, but the effect on the ball (and your opponent!) is completely different. In this case you are bending the pips to reduce the amount of spin on the ball, not increase it.
* Also, notice that although you have reduced the amount of spin on the ball, you have not reversed the direction of the spin. So it goes back to your opponent with some topspin on the ball.
* This is completely different to what would have happened if you had played this stroke with a normal inverted rubber, in which case you would have changed the direction of the spin to a counterclockwise direction, which would be backspin to your opponent.
* This is one of the reasons why players who don't understand long pips complain that they are unpredictable. The result of your long pips stroke is opposite to that of a similar inverted rubber stroke - but it is entirely predictable - it will always work that way.

[clau]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

Long Pimples - 'Loop' Against Backspin
OK, now let's reverse the direction of your own stroke, and see what happens. I'll start with you playing an upward, loop style stroke against your opponent's backspin ball. Look below to see what the result is.



Points to note:
* In essence, you are just reversing what happens when you chop against your opponent's topspin ball. Once again, you are using the bending of your long pips to brush the ball and increase the amount of spin in the original direction, while sending the ball back to your opponent. So his backspin ball comes back to him as a topspin ball, with a little more spin that he originally put on it.
* Again, the end result of this stroke is more or less the same as what your opponent would expect if you had used an inverted rubber - you are increasing the amount of spin on the ball. Maybe not quite as much as an inverted rubber would, but still a similar effect.

[clau]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

Long Pimples - 'Loop' Against Topspin
Now let's see what happens if you play a loop type stroke with your long pips against a topspin ball.


Points to note:
* Even though you have used a topspin style stroke, you have not changed the direction of the spin, you have only reduced the amount of spin a little. It was spinning heavily counterclockwise when it came towards you, and it's still spinning counterclockwise as it goes away from you, just not as fast. So the ball will return to your opponent as a backspin ball, not a topspin ball.
* The only way you will manage to actually change the direction of the ball's spin is if your opponent has played a very light topspin, in which case you might be able to change it into a very light topspin ball back. I'm talking very light spin in both cases here.
* Again, this is one of the situations where opponents who don't understand long pips will tend to get mad. If you had played this stroke with an inverted rubber, you would have changed the direction of the spin from counterclockwise (topspin from your opponent) to clockwise (topspin from you). But instead, the opposite has happened, the ball is still spinning counterclockwise, just a little more slowly. Remember, just because your opponent doesn't understand what is going on, doesn't make long pips unpredictable. They will work this way every time - and now hopefully you will be able to predict what will happen!

[clau]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

Long Pimples - Killing Topspin
Finally, let's take a look at one of the advanced aspects of using long pips - the ability to kill the spin on the ball when your opponent doesn't expect it, returning a sneaky float ball. Again, I must point out that although the long pips don't kill the spin the same way as inverted rubber does, they are totally predictable in how they work - you just have to know what is going on.
Take a look at both animations below - the idea is the same for both.

Points to note:
* Firstly, let me just point out that this is not the easiest technique in the world to master. You have to get your bat angle and the direction of your stroke just right, so that your pips bend in all directions, rather than in the same direction. This is not as easy as you might think.
* Secondly, think about the difference between this stroke and how you would kill the spin with a normal rubber. With an inverted rubber, you have to judge the amount of spin the ball has when it reaches you (which is usually much less than your opponent originally put on it due to air resistance), and then put exactly the same amount of spin in the opposite direction to cancel everything out. So you generally end up stroking much more slowly then your opponent, since you are trying to cancel out the smaller amount of spin that is left when it reaches you. This slow stroke usually makes it pretty obvious that you are trying to kill the spin.
* In contrast, with long pips you aren't trying to reverse your opponent's spin precisely, you are just trying to grab the ball and stop the spin completely. (It's like the difference between trying to stop a spinning top by flicking it in the other direction, versus just grabbing the darn thing!). So you don't have to swing slower, you just have to get the bat angle and direction right. You may not kill the spin totally, but if you do it right you'll reduce it much more than he thinks! So it's not easy for your opponent to tell what you are doing - inverted rubber doesn't work like that.
* Again, this is another example why players who don't understand long pips get confused - and why you might get confused as well. If you don't know that long pips can do this - you might accidentally manage to play this type of stroke during a match and leave both you and your opponent scratching your head about what just happened, as the ball takes off in an unexpected direction.
* This is also a great technique to use against opponents who tell you that they have long pips "all figured out". These type of players usually understand how the bending of the pips can increase or decrease the spin on the ball. Throw this technique at them a few times, and watch them start to scratch their heads and lose their confidence. Lovely stuff!
Conclusion
Obviously, this article isn't the complete guide to long pips. There's a lot more to using them successfully then just understanding the basics, but knowing the fundamentals is essential if you are going to be a good long pips player.
An expert long pips player can vary the amount of bending of the pips to increase or decrease the effects, twiddle his bat around to use the other inverted side, or even adjust his swing speed and amount of wrist he uses to completely bamboozle his opponent.
If you'd like to learn more about the advanced use of long pimpled rubbers, you can join my online coaching group to get advice on techniques, tactics and training. I've used long pips and antispin rubbers for over 20 years, and at age 38 I'm still competing successfully at the national level in Australia (just ask some of my victims!), with a ranking of #945 in the ITTF World Men's Rankings as of December 2008.

[clau]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

How Antispin Really Works
Welcome back! Now that you have a good idea of how long pimples work, I won't have to go over all the same things that antispin and long pimples have in common. Instead, we can focus on what's unique about antispin.
What Is Antispin?
Antispin rubbers are inverted rubbers that are designed to nullify the effects of an opponent's spin. They generally achieve this by having a relatively slick, slippery surface, that doesn't grip the ball much. In physics terms, the angle of reflection is pretty close to the angle of incidence - or more simply put, the ball will bounce off your racket at the same angle it came from (not the same path!) - the spin on the ball won't make much difference.
Antispin has a smooth topsheet for hitting the ball, with the pimples on the inside, instead of the outside. The topsheet can vary from very firm to quite soft. The softer the topsheet, the more it can wrap around the ball, allowing more of the antispin surface to touch the ball.
Since it is an inverted rubber, antispin must also have sponge. These sponges can vary in hardness vs softness, and in the amount of speed they provide. Generally a softer sponge will allow the topsheet to bend more, allowing more of the topsheet surface to touch the ball. A faster sponge will rebound the ball more quickly, allowing less time for the topsheet to be in contact with the ball.
Contact With The Ball - Why Is This Important?
The factors I mentioned above are important because they affect the amount of time the topsheet is in contact with the ball, and the amount of topsheet that will come into contact with the ball. Here's the important stuff to know:
* Antispins are by nature fairly slippery, but they do have a small amount of grip - which varies from rubber to rubber.
* The more slippery the rubber, the less it can affect the original spin on the ball.
* The more time the topsheet is in contact with the ball, the more chance it has to affect the original spin.
* The more the amount of topsheet is in contact with the ball, the more chance it has to affect the original spin.
So a very slippery, hard topsheet on fast, firm sponge will probably have very little effect on the ball's spin, simply allowing the spin to continue while changing the direction the ball is travelling in, while a less slippery, flexible topsheet on slow, soft sponge will be able to affect the spin on the ball comparatively more (although still not a lot when compared to normal inverted rubbers though!).
Antispin - Chop Against Topspin
With all that in mind, take a look at the animation below. In all these examples, I'm going to demonstrate what happens when using an antispin with a less slippery, flexible topsheet, on soft, slower sponge. This is the combination that allows you to affect the spin on the ball the most.


Points to note:
* The soft, slow sponge and flexible topsheet allows more of the topsheet to contact the ball, giving you the opportunity to grip the ball a little, and to use that grip to increase the spin on the ball a little.
* Slipperier, stiffer topsheets on faster, firmer sponge will increase the spin much less, tending to simply return the ball back to your opponent with little change in the spin, apart from the reduction due to air friction.
* Just like with long pimples, the spin on the ball going back to your opponent is backspin, which is what he would expect. It probably won't be quite as much as he expects though, since the antispin won't grip the ball very much.

[clau]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

Antispin - Chop Against Backspin
Now let's look at the same chop stroke from you, but against your opponent's backspin ball.


Points to note:
* In this case, the wrapping of the topsheet around the ball will reduce the spin on the ball a little, but will not reverse the direction of the spin - it does not have enough grip to do that. This is completely different to what would happen using normal inverted rubber.
* Just as with long pimples, this can confuse opponents who don't know how antispin works. The same shot with normal inverted rubber would change the direction of the spin, returning a backspin ball.
* Again, although the result is opposite to what would happen with a normal inverted rubber, the result is entirely predictable - the antispin will always react the same way.

[clau]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

Antispin - 'Loop' Against Backspin
Now let's reverse the direction of your own stroke, so that you are playing an upward, loop style stroke against your opponent's backspin ball.


Points to note:
* Again, the wrapping of the topsheet and sponge of the antispin will allow you to increase the spin on the ball a little, but much less than with normal inverted rubber.
* Your opponent will be correct in assuming that topspin is on the ball, but he might misjudge how much spin, since you are adding less spin than a normal inverted rubber would.

[clau]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

Antispin - 'Loop' Against Topspin
Now let's compare what happens when you play a loop type stroke with your antispin against a topspin ball.


Points to note:
* Again, this is similar to what happens when using long pimples, but the antispin will affect the spin on the ball much less. You have not changed the direction of the spin, you have only reduced the amount of spin a little. The stiffer and slipperier the topsheet, and the firmer and faster the sponge, the less effect you will have.
* Just as with long pimples, this can be confusing for opponents. If you had played this stroke with an inverted rubber, you would have changed the direction of the spin from counterclockwise (topspin from your opponent) to clockwise (topspin from you). But instead, the opposite has happened, the ball is still spinning counterclockwise, just a little more slowly.
* Remember, this will happen every time - it's completely predictable. But first you have to understand what is going on to be able to tell what will happen. Opponents who complain about antispin and long pips either can't be bothered to learn what is going on, or haven't had anyone explain what is happening properly!

[clau]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

Antispin - Killing Topspin
Because antispin has a smooth surface, unlike long pips, it can't kill spin the same way that long pimples do. But it can still have some effect at killing spin. Check out the two animations below.


Points to note:
* First of all, you can forget about pulling this sort of shot off if your topsheet is too hard, and your sponge is too firm. The ball is going to bounce off the rubber before it has a chance to slow anything down.
* Secondly, this is a darn tough shot to pull off successfully. You are almost trying to "catch" the ball with your antispin, giving the ball as much time as possible to stay in contact with the topsheet. Because the topsheet is fairly slippery, the ball will continue to spin on the racket, rather than jumping straight off. But that little bit of friction will still slow down the spin on the ball. Keep in mind that pure air resistance slows the spin on the ball down a lot during the time it takes to travel from your opponent to you. So if you can maximise the contact time with the ball, you have a chance to slow it down even more.
* Thirdly, I must admit that the mechanics of how this works is just a theory of mine - I don't have scientific proof - I'd need a super high speed camera for that! But I've used enough antispin, and played against enough antispin during my career to see the result in action. This is my best explanation for how the effect is achieved.
Conclusion
As you've already guessed if you read my article on How Long Pimples Really Work, this part is where I explain that this is only a primer on antispin, and that there is much more to using antispin well than just these basics.
Much of the effect of antispin (and long pimples) is in how you apply the fundamentals, combining antispin with an inverted rubber on the other side to deceive your opponent about what spin you have put on the ball. New antispin users hope that simply contacting the ball with the antispin will do the job - expert antispin players have a number of ways to achieve this deception and get the most from their racket.
If you'd like to learn more about the advanced use of antispin rubbers, you can join my online coaching group to get advice on techniques, tactics and training. I've used long pips and antispin rubbers for over 20 years, and at age 38 I'm still competing successfully at the national level in Australia (just ask some of my victims!), with a ranking of #945 in the ITTF World Men's Rankings as of December 2008.

[vali]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

Fara ironii ieftine , kiar articolele sunt interesante pentru cei ce joaca impotriva materialelor . De multe ori doar experienta face diferenta.
Am citit articol despre problemele pe care le au kinezii cand joaca impotriva lui Joo Se Hyuk de exemplu pentru ca nu au aparator de talia lui Joo cu care sa se antreneze si nu pot face fata spinului care vine de la Joo. Ma Lin e un exemplu ilustru in acest sens.
Pe de alta parte sunt destui ierbari care au probleme maaari daca joaca contra .... ierbarilor :P

[laky]

Re: "Dark Side" demistificat

Nu am vrut sa supar pe nimeni cu ceea ce am postat.Sunt interesante imaginile animate, dar dupa parerea mea la fel de putin folositoare in rezolvarea "problemei" ca si disertatia mea despre efectul Magnus.Daca intelegerea traiectoriilor nu se concretizeaza in automatisme foarte bine puse la punct, atunci totul ramane pura teorie. Iar pentru formarea automatismelor e nevoie de......
Observatia lui Vali e perfecta, ca ierbar am nevoie si eu de 2000 ore de antrenament pentru a rezista unui confrate mai vechi in "functie" !!!

[macocco]

Re: Cum se joaca contra ierbii sau antitopspin

Intrebare: Butterfly Super Anti intra in categoria materialelor? Iarba nu este, dar am foarte mari probleme cu un prieten care joaca cu o astfel de fata. Nu de alta, dar sa ma pregatesc pentru cele 2000 de ore de antrenament

[Hades]

Re: Cum se joaca contra ierbii sau antitopspin

Intrebare: Butterfly Super Anti intra in categoria materialelor? Iarba nu este, dar am foarte mari probleme cu un prieten care joaca cu o astfel de fata. Nu de alta, dar sa ma pregatesc pentru cele 2000 de ore de antrenament

[tv-net]titluri=Simon - Coroian. Superliga Masculina Tenis de Masa,mp4:sport/090500_simon_coroian.m4v,rtmp://www.tv-net.ro/streaming,3,http://www.tv-net.ro/pvideos/470_t_simoncoroian.jpg[/tv-net]